Curse

ogami_ito · Oct 18, 2006, 10:36 AM // 10:36

OK. Besides KD specialized warriors.

Warriors output a good amount of pressure damage, and have some OK spikes, and do this with high armor. And they have some good skills for applying Deep Wounds, assuming you own Prophesies. But the main role in PvP is either Spike, or KD, or pressure, or a combination of two of these. Often while adding conditions. And being survivable.

Lets look at whats comming out:

Paragon: Damage output about the same it seems, but at range. Armour just a little bit less. I lot of utility skills (but not much KD though) make for a lot of different team-builts. The can actually apply Deep Wounds faster than a warrior (depending on circumstance). Mainly lacking in IAS and running boost, however,...
P/N can spread weakness like crazy and do +40 damage every 3 shots or so...
P/R or P/W can have great running and IAS stances.
So...Spike...better than W. Pressure...maybe better than W (spear can be dodged by good players). KD...no. Conditions...better than W. Survivability... probably much better.

Overall, for pressure, defence, and spike, seems to be able to beat a warrior...and at range.

Dervish: Damage output MAYBE as good or better than warrior. Self-sufficient heals. Less armor but heals almost make up for that. Can apply lots of conditions. Lots of utility. Lacking speed and IAS, but that can be compensated with secondary. Great AOE fighter...which means great against warriors and sins that attack it. So... Spike...ok not as good as W. Pressure...maybe better. KD... no. Conditions...much better. Survivability...seems better to me, but it depends on what goes against it.

Rangers:
Comparing it with the warrior role...
R/P = Better pressure, better conditions, but maybe a little less survivable.

Sin:
Better at enchantment hate. Much better at spike and conditions. OK with KDs. Much less survivable.

....

OK...not saying that Warriors are completely useless in PvP...still the hardest target around. But also a much lower priority target because the new combinations seem much more effective.

Discuss.

Aegeroth · Oct 18, 2006, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Yeh i saw this coming,
Ive always thiought to myself "god i hope they dont bring out more powerful weapons than the last version", it spoils the concept of having the previous version except for the story! In this case its the fundemnetals of the game which are beign out-classed by newer arrivals, the warriors will be like mesmers sooner or later, very rare.*

* that is to say that Deverish/Paragon builds might make the warrior a redundant class.

Jaml · Oct 18, 2006, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Don´t worry it will probably just be like in Factions. During the preview event assasins and ritualists were kickass so everyone bought Factions only to discover they were nerfed to kingdom come. Now nearly nobody plays them anymore while warriors reign supreme.

mrdbeau · Oct 18, 2006, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaml

Don´t worry it will probably just be like in Factions. During the preview event assasins and ritualists were kickass so everyone bought Factions only to discover they were nerfed to kingdom come. Now nearly nobody plays them anymore while warriors reign supreme.

Yeah, I never see assassins or ritualists in pvp/pve anymore...

But, I would somewhat liken it to threads about ritualists outclassing and becoming the new monks and monks would be useless and so on. From the preview events, they did look like powerful healers (and they still are/can be), but monks still take the lead for pure, unadulterated healing power. I suspect the same will occur with paragons and dervishes. They will have a good niche in the game, but wars will still have their place as well, probably with some adaptation needed to how people currently think about playing wars.

Patccmoi · Oct 18, 2006, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogami_ito

OK. Besides KD specialized warriors.

Warriors output a good amount of pressure damage, and have some OK spikes, and do this with high armor. And they have some good skills for applying Deep Wounds, assuming you own Prophesies. But the main role in PvP is either Spike, or KD, or pressure, or a combination of two of these. Often while adding conditions. And being survivable.

Lets look at whats comming out:

Paragon: Damage output about the same it seems, but at range. Armour just a little bit less. I lot of utility skills (but not much KD though) make for a lot of different team-builts. The can actually apply Deep Wounds faster than a warrior (depending on circumstance). Mainly lacking in IAS and running boost, however,...
P/N can spread weakness like crazy and do +40 damage every 3 shots or so...
P/R or P/W can have great running and IAS stances.
So...Spike...better than W. Pressure...maybe better than W (spear can be dodged by good players). KD...no. Conditions...better than W. Survivability... probably much better.

Overall, for pressure, defence, and spike, seems to be able to beat a warrior...and at range.

Dervish: Damage output MAYBE as good or better than warrior. Self-sufficient heals. Less armor but heals almost make up for that. Can apply lots of conditions. Lots of utility. Lacking speed and IAS, but that can be compensated with secondary. Great AOE fighter...which means great against warriors and sins that attack it. So... Spike...ok not as good as W. Pressure...maybe better. KD... no. Conditions...much better. Survivability...seems better to me, but it depends on what goes against it.

Rangers:
Comparing it with the warrior role...
R/P = Better pressure, better conditions, but maybe a little less survivable.

Sin:
Better at enchantment hate. Much better at spike and conditions. OK with KDs. Much less survivable.

....

OK...not saying that Warriors are completely useless in PvP...still the hardest target around. But also a much lower priority target because the new combinations seem much more effective.

Discuss.

I think you kinda evaluate Paragon and Dervish bad. Paragons DON'T have the damage of warriors. Their Spears are nice, but they are like wands with a longer range : strafing takes out their damage very easily. For utility, they definitely beat warriors by leaps and bounds, and they're far from a weak class. But for pressure/spike potential? Not really what warriors can do imo. As for IAS and running boost, they have some... Hell, they have arguably the best IAS available because they have no drawbacks, can be maintained permanently, unremovable, and they're not stances. For running skill, Lead the Way! is pretty awesome if you have 2-3 people around you and can be used on yourself or others. And don't make the mistake of thinking that these skills are very high energy and that Paragon have only 2 pips of regen... Leadership and something like Go for the Eyes! actually make the Paragon have something like 5-6 pips of energy regen... it's very efficient emanagement.

Dervish also have 2 IAS, one stance (25% IAS/25% move speed!) and one enchantment (33% IAS). And they have running skill exceeding whatever warrior have. Compare for example Harrier's Haste with Sprint:

Harrier's Haste: Wind Prayers, 5E/20s recharge, stance

For 5..17 seconds, you move 25% faster and deal +5..13 damage on moving foes

Sprint : Strength, 5E/20s recharge, stance

For 5..13 seconds, you move 25% faster

So... who's winning for running skill here? Warrior? And that's one of 4-5 move speed buff Dervishes can use, one an enchant also making all conditions on you last 50% less which is pretty awesome against Cripshot or the like. Dervish have better running skills than warriors... the only competing warrior skill is Charging Strike which is an elite and ends when you hit a foe (but can be used to have permanent 33% move speed if you're not attacking).

And for spike, Deep Wounds with 2-3s recharge and +40 damage attack skills with 4s recharge makes Dervish able to easily spike as good as warrior.

But don't forget what warrior bring either though. The disruption from KDs and interrupts are pretty important, and they're still the best at overextending (dervishes are still relatively easy to spike down. They're more resilient against degen, DPS or the like but for spikes they're as soft as sins unless they maintain defensive enchants/stance).

I don't think warriors are gonna vanish at all. I just think that finally they might not be the supreme and only decent pressure/spike character.

Poison Ivy · Oct 18, 2006, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Destructive Blow [E]

I think not.

Neo-LD · Oct 18, 2006, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Anything with a spear, be it P/ or R/P, will never be as reliable a source of pressure as warriors since spears are perfectly evadable. Conditions are just another form of pressure, but even if it were its own category, I dont see how paragons are much better at applying conditions. Its DW inflicting skills are spammable but often conditional. Paragons probably have nifty spike ability because they can use an attack skill followed immedeatly by harriers toss, which basically will act like a savage shot in R-spike...

So for W v P, I see

W > P (dps), W ~= P (spike), W ~= P (conditions), W > P (DW), W > P (individual survivability), and W < P (team utility), W > P (KD)

As for Dervishes, their sythes have attributes similar to hammers. Lack of adrenaline turns them into something similar to a sin imo... and most of their attack skills are crap. They are decent if they can hit many people per attack (tho that will happen rarely), and they are good at spreading conditions (especially when you combine the two, to get aoe conditions

)

So for W v D, I see

W > D (dps), W > D (spike), W < D (conditions), W ~= D (DW), W > D (individual survivability), W ~< D (team utility), W > D (KD)

As for sins, I think you vastly overestimate them. They may have gotten a buff, but they still cannot come close to warriors in terms of frontline offense because their combos can be broken, they cant take advantage of adrenaline, they are much more vulnerable, and just plain have less dps. Also, I dont know what gave you the idea that sins spike harder than wars, but thats preposterous. Sins are the best at killing vulnerable, alone targets quickly because they dont have to build adrenaline to use their combo, and their chain, while actually not that fast, is often too much for lone targets not meant to battle them 1v1. In a full-scale battle, sin combos are extremely easy to catch with monks.

So for W v A, I see

W > A (dps), W > A (spike), W < A (conditions), W > A (DW), W > A (survivability in full battle), W < A (survivability in skirmish), W > A (team utility), W > A (KD).

I dunno about you, but there sure are alot of W > X up there. I dont think warriors are going to be "less valued" any time soon.

Thomas.knbk · Oct 18, 2006, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Spears might be evadable, but axes are kitable

Byron · Oct 19, 2006, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Spears don't have the plethora of skills that warrior weapons can bring to the field. In the end, you have maybe 4-5 decent PvP worthy spear skills. I think its a huge mistake to bring a paragon for damage pressure or DPS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.kbnk

Spears might be evadable, but axes are kitable

Spears are also kitable - their range isn't spectacular, and thus a paragon will still have to enter your lines in order to attack your backline. A good monk or support character can easily pull a paragon into dangerous territory by kiting backwards; granted, they aren't as kitable as melee weapons, but that should go without saying.

tomcruisejr · Oct 19, 2006, 03:18 AM // 03:18

no because of eviscerate, knockdowns and final thrust.

warriors are always better than assassins coz they dont need an attack chain. the nightfall melee class mostly has conditional attack skills(enchant removal first before dmg mostly). compared to the warrior, the dervish blows.

comparing paragons and warrior is like comparing apples and oranges so i wont even attempt.

Patrograd · Oct 19, 2006, 06:08 AM // 06:08

In the end the balanced meta almost always settles down into something roughly resembling 2 warriors, 2 mesmers, 2 monks, a runner and a utility

There are always little periods where there is a variance from this, but I'd like to bet that once nightfall settles down and builds evolve properly, that people will come back to this as the basic build template.

So no, I dont think nightfall will kill off warriors

Vermilion Okeanos · Oct 19, 2006, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

W > P (dps), W ~= P (spike), W ~= P (conditions), W > P (DW), W > P (individual survivability), and W < P (team utility), W > P (KD)

W > D (dps), W > D (spike), W < D (conditions), W ~= D (DW), W > D (individual survivability), W ~< D (team utility), W > D (KD)

W > A (dps), W > A (spike), W < A (conditions), W > A (DW), W > A (survivability in full battle), W < A (survivability in skirmish), W > A (team utility), W > A (KD).

Honestly, I feel that chart is quite off.

First of all, you didn't consider skill or build examples. Second, you didn't consider other attribute line; how can W>D (dps) when D got all those AoE spells + AoE auto-atk + high crit dmg (just one example)? What about the equipments? Paragon is defintely more durable than warrior in elemental damage, does that not count toward survival? In what way do you consider higher/lower? Obviously, if you were to count ultimately strongest spike, that would be A > W (spike), so I guess you weren't considering "ultimately/perfect weather"; if you weren't considering ultimately, then wouldn't everyone be just as crappy anyway? (as everyone can only work in the condition they were design for)

... Too many holes to poke, I get tired just by thinking of it. No offense to you or anything.

TheBaron82 · Oct 19, 2006, 07:35 AM // 07:35

I'm not sure about you but I'm more worry about new classes wont last. Rt and Sin basically dead until they nerfed commonly used skills and improved sins and rt. About paragon, I had no trouble killing them as a war for their damage output is not high and their interupt is conditional.

Spura · Oct 19, 2006, 10:29 AM // 10:29

What a load of crock.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogami_ito

I lot of utility skills (but not much KD though) make for a lot of different team-builts. The can actually apply Deep Wounds faster than a warrior (depending on circumstance). Mainly lacking in IAS and running boost, however,...

Warrior packs disruption and damage in one package like bull's strike. Utility paragons obsiously can't pressure on their own, there is no way you can have 15 spear mastery and good utility, also utility takes up slots so fewer attack skills. Paragons pressure through allies, i.e. warriors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogami_ito

P/N can spread weakness like crazy and do +40 damage every 3 shots or so...

Yeah sounds good but it isn't. Time spreading weakness is time not shooting or chargin adrenaline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogami_ito

So...Spike...better than W.

Wouldn't say that. Axes and swords are faster than spears, so is the spike then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

W > P (dps), W ~= P (spike), W ~= P (conditions), W > P (DW), W > P (individual survivability), and W < P (team utility), W > P (KD)

W > D (dps), W > D (spike), W < D (conditions), W ~= D (DW), W > D (individual survivability), W ~< D (team utility), W > D (KD)
So for W v A, I see

W > A (dps), W > A (spike), W < A (conditions), W > A (DW), W > A (survivability in full battle), W < A (survivability in skirmish), W > A (team utility), W > A (KD).

Agreed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

Paragon is defintely more durable than warrior in elemental damage, does that not count toward survival?

Barely better vs elemental. They have armor with extra 10 AL vs elemental and 10 AL vs 2 elemntal types, that is it. Most people will use energy armor anyway in which case it is same AL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

Obviously, if you were to count ultimately strongest spike, that would be A > W (spike),

Assassin spikes suck. Gash+Final Thrust is better than anything assassin has, Final Thrust makes DW take effect so is in effect 200+ HP drop in one attack. In guildwars melee hate usually is in the form of evade/block/miss abilities rathen than slower attack speed hexes, which ruins assassin way more than a warrior. In general their attack chains are laughably easy to counter. The moment I see AoD, I fire off my interrupt which usually hits assassin in the middle of first attack/shock in the chain. Just too predictable. Strong chains, like golden phoenix chain, are not spikes because they are too slow. Also such a chain burns all the energy assassin has in the pool, which makes energy denial money against them, something warrior doesn't have much problems with. Also because of 30 energy chains like that, any DP delays the last attack in the chain(twisting fangs, the DW one) delayed because you don't have enough max energy to do the whole chain anymore.

Assassin has to be the most poorly designed class of them all. What use is energy regen with criticals when that energy is needed in a burst and energy pool is low?

These vulnerabilities show up in the fact that assassin was never used for anything but briefly for ganking NPCs.

granor · Oct 19, 2006, 03:13 PM // 15:13

I think Anet is trying to make it so that warriors are not the only go to guys for damage

Zuranthium · Oct 19, 2006, 03:41 PM // 15:41

I sure as hell hope that future expansions contain only one new class (if any at all? We'll have 20 classes in 2 years time if things keep progressing like this).

Patccmoi · Oct 19, 2006, 04:07 PM // 16:07

How can W ~= D for DW? I don't remember warriors have 2s recharge AOE Deep Wound... Seriously Dervishes exceed every other class by FAR for Deep Wound application.

I don't agree with that chart as a whole (some points are correct ofc) but debating every point would take quite a bit of time.

Overall it think Dervish and Assassins are quite underestimated in there compared to warriors... I dunno if people looked at Dervish attack skills seriously but 4s recharge +40 damage Scythe attack (highest DPS weapon in the game btw, and that's on single target) is quite scary along with 2-3s recharge Deep Wounds. Twin Moon that does a double crit (not unrealistic on moving targets) is like 200 damage on its own. Something like Wounding Strike-Mystic Sweep is a 10E, 4s recharge spike doing 2 Scythe attacks + DW, and if 1 Scythe attack crits it's easily as much as Evis-Exec because Scythes crit MUCH higher than axes (at 16 Scythe they crit at around 90+ damage). And 2 IAS can be found in Dervish lines, or use some from warriors.

You know, warriors are pretty much as susceptible at attack chain break than Assassins. If Sever is blocked, Gash is wasted. If Evis is blocked, Executioner's isn't charged anymore (you lost 1 adrenal) so you have to do Evis (blocked)-hit-Exec which isn't close to a spike anymore. For most hammer chains, if the KD is blocked Crushing doesn't do much and the whole chain kinda sucks. Just like if Crushing is blocked, you did a KD which is quite useful but no real damage in the end. Etc. And mostly if at any point an adrenal attack skill is blocked all further adrenal attack skill lost 1 adrenal and require a normal hit to be charged again which breaks the combo (yes, you can do it by hitting again, it's easier to continue than a sin combo, but as far as spike or the like go, it's the same effect : it will be easily saved). Warriors are definitely better pressure than sin and their ability to overextend some with their heavy armor along with the easy to use KD/interrupts are quite powerful (Disrupting Dagger will give sins quite an edge on interrupt though since it's an instant spell interrupt (can't be blocked/evaded) and has some range). I'm not saying Warriors are worse, but an Assassin with some +damage buff and an IAS (Flurry is fine) can easily clear a warrior in 4-5s midfight on his own, and if warriors on his side or the like are bashing on your monks it's not actually easy to save at all. I know i killed countless warrior in the middle of a fight with a Flourish Assassin having Strength of Honor or Brutal Weapon on his back, and against some top 100 guilds just as easily.

Don't assume that because something isn't popular it's weaker. You must always consider the builds people use. If you bring an AoD-GPS-Horns-Falling-Twisting-Shock assassin mid-fight, it's horrible. But Assassins designed to fight mid-fight can easily stay alive and apply massive spike pressure.

tomcruisejr · Oct 19, 2006, 04:22 PM // 16:22

while a warrior can use executioners strike then eviscerate, an assassin cannot use a dual attack, off-hand attack then lead attack.

moreover, you can do gash then severe and still do damage (without the deepwound of course). again if you use a dual attack that requires an off-hand attack after a lead attack, youll see "Miss".

Symbol · Oct 19, 2006, 04:45 PM // 16:45

And why would you want to do either of those things?

Neo-LD · Oct 19, 2006, 06:01 PM // 18:01

The 'chart' that I posted is not be-all-end-all, and not all of you have to agree with it. I personally think its fairly accurate, tho it is of course very general. That being the case, it is easy to nitpick little things that might sway certain comparisons one way or the other, but almost everything that was mentioned here as an argument against, I was aware of and took into consideration. The nature of the chart, of course, means that all you see is a x > y, but there is of course alot of reasoning behind all of my decisions. Also, I should note, many of these comparisons will soon be rendered outmoded since many of these things will have changed between the preview and the release of Nightfall.

Quote:

How can W ~= D for DW? I don't remember warriors have 2s recharge AOE Deep Wound... Seriously Dervishes exceed every other class by FAR for Deep Wound application.

In terms of number of applications, yes Dervishes are suprerior. I prize DW skills that also have +dmg attached for extra spike power, like Crushing Blow and Eviscerate. Thats why I had them ~=.

Quote:

You know, warriors are pretty much as susceptible at attack chain break than Assassins. If Sever is blocked, Gash is wasted. If Evis is blocked, Executioner's isn't charged anymore (you lost 1 adrenal) so you have to do Evis (blocked)-hit-Exec which isn't close to a spike anymore. For most hammer chains, if the KD is blocked Crushing doesn't do much and the whole chain kinda sucks. Just like if Crushing is blocked, you did a KD which is quite useful but no real damage in the end. Etc. And mostly if at any point an adrenal attack skill is blocked all further adrenal attack skill lost 1 adrenal and require a normal hit to be charged again which breaks the combo (yes, you can do it by hitting again, it's easier to continue than a sin combo, but as far as spike or the like go, it's the same effect : it will be easily saved). Warriors are definitely better pressure than sin and their ability to overextend some with their heavy armor along with the easy to use KD/interrupts are quite powerful (Disrupting Dagger will give sins quite an edge on interrupt though since it's an instant spell interrupt (can't be blocked/evaded) and has some range). I'm not saying Warriors are worse, but an Assassin with some +damage buff and an IAS (Flurry is fine) can easily clear a warrior in 4-5s midfight on his own, and if warriors on his side or the like are bashing on your monks it's not actually easy to save at all. I know i killed countless warrior in the middle of a fight with a Flourish Assassin having Strength of Honor or Brutal Weapon on his back, and against some top 100 guilds just as easily.

Warrior chains are also interuptable, but doing so is far more difficult than interupting assasins. With assasins, there are recharges you can count, and the combo has to come in a precise timing and order, he cant delay falling spider after a shock for the purpose of making you miss an interupt. There are often 3 or more skills used in order, at predictable times, making it easy to interupt. With warriors, there are no set recharges, just the variable rate of adrenaline gain. Often, only one skill, like bulls strike, will be used at a time. In the cases where warriors are using a chain, it usually begins more unpredictably and ends much faster than an assasin chain. This makes it much more difficult to actually pull off. Lastly, interupters dont watch warriors often because denying chains does not shut them down. Warriors are amazing pressure machines even without their skills. Assasins, on the other hand, get watched more often, because they ARE their combos. Without them, you'd almost be better do better by wanding.

Quote:

First of all, you didn't consider skill or build examples. Second, you didn't consider other attribute line; how can W>D (dps) when D got all those AoE spells + AoE auto-atk + high crit dmg (just one example)? What about the equipments? Paragon is defintely more durable than warrior in elemental damage, does that not count toward survival? In what way do you consider higher/lower? Obviously, if you were to count ultimately strongest spike, that would be A > W (spike), so I guess you weren't considering "ultimately/perfect weather"; if you weren't considering ultimately, then wouldn't everyone be just as crappy anyway? (as everyone can only work in the condition they were design for)

1) Please elaborate on "skill or build examples." In this chart I simply used common warrior builds as compared to my best guess at what a melee dervish would be. How would you like this to be different?

2) Dervish AoE spells are trash. AoE auto-attack is only useful against opponents who wont spread out (e.g, bad people who you'd beat anyways). Their damage is kinda like hammers only with crappier attack skills.

3) Elemental armor is inferior in almost all cases to physical armor. Warriors have Heal Signet, Paragons dont.

4) Assasin spikes suck.